Hello again LemonSage!
Thank you for responding! It's always nice to actually get a response because I always feel writers must be super busy. So to take time out of your day to respond is very kind and awesome. I'll keep this one short.
I agree with a lot of your points. I just want to say a few things for clarity. My initial statement on Naruto's philosophy, while I don't completely agree with all of it depending on who his actions are for, has more to do with how lackluster it is as a reader than anything else. He has reasons for his actions and they are good and understandable reasons as a character but they don't inspire/impress/motivate a reader(well, maybe just me, really... not that you have to). His philosophy and my personal issue with it has more to do with the story-to-audience relationship. Your Naruto is special because of his impressive world changing goals and the family/connections he creates along the way no matter the conflict. As a reader I enjoy that. But then he undercuts that thing that makes him special for exclusivity.
"I want to change the world, but only if it benefits my family," yelled Commander Uzumaki. "Hail Fox! Hail Fox! Hail Fox!" (lol)
You've established that everyone in your world only looks out for their own interests. Minato, Ay, Gaara sacrifice close people/loved ones for their ends, either for the collective or not. Naruto is doing the exact same thing. It's the opposite side of the same coin. Why is it okay to trash them for sacrificing close loved ones but not Naruto for sacrificing strangers? (I'll get to sacrificing strangers in a minute) It's a contradiction and not necessarily because Naruto doesn't have good reasons for his actions but because we, as an audience, already have proof of what a hero/interesting person is. "I want to change the world, and I'm going to do it in a way you've never seen before." That sounds more like an interesting character. As strong and as family-oriented as Naruto is, he's no different than any regular guy watching out for themselves and their house with the sacrifice coming from outside his house. As a regular anybody it's not hard to be selfish and Naruto is doing that--the easy thing. As an audience/reader I personally just don't associate that mentality with someone interesting. And I'm using the word "interesting" and not "hero," because as an audience/reader I care more about 'interesting' characters than what it means to be a 'hero'.
Also, if we dive into your world, would Tenten have been as good or as inspired to be a great kunoichi without her heroes, like Mito and Tsunade(Both of whom don't see themselves as heroes). And maybe Tsunade and Mito aren't heroes but they should be able to understand that others--whether they be your seniors or peers or the younger up and coming generations--will look to them/their strength as a source of inspiration. Naruto may not be cool with the burden of the title hero, but is it cool to just tell people or kids who may have hopes to do and be better, "Well, I'm not a hero, so sorry, look somewhere else." To me, the Naruto that put it all on the line to rescue Kin is much more interesting than the Naruto that said the Suna people don't matter more than Yugito's optimum happiness. Those are two different Naruto's to me.
I was a fat kid that grew up to be a fat adult. I'm ashamed to admit I didn't have the mental fortitude to change... until I met that one guy who not only inspired me but told me he was the same way. What I'm trying to say is that sometimes people need their heroes/inspirations because deep down people do want to change for the better. So when you have a great candidate like Naruto imposing all these wonderful changes in the world to then turn around and say these strangers don't matter to me... well, it's disappointing. And that's what I, as a reader, feel sometimes with your main character when he says stuff like that. Disappointment. That's why Naruto's philosophy, in my eyes, will be hard to convince, if not many, than at least myself.
I will say this. I firmly believe that we can't all be special or leaders, or kings or heads of clans. The workers and followers are just as important as the ones leading them. After all, what's a king without followers? A soup without ingredients? I mean it's kinda hard to buy groceries if no one's farming it. Kinda hard to be smart if there are no teachers to teach. Pretty easy to be a criminal when there are no police to fight injustice. Society needs these people to function and prosper as a whole. A 'One for All,' kind of deal. A single person smart enough to create farming techniques, that yield more crops, that feed craftsman so they can focus on their services or product, that stimulates more commerce and businesses, all of whom are taxed which then funds government, who in turn focus their wealth on programs like shinobi, and teachers, and police and so on. One affects the group. These are the people who suffer the most when Naruto wants one of his lovers to be happier than she already is, in turn making him happier. And while Naruto is not evil, he is a self proclaimed selfish person who apparently has no problems being upfront about that. And should some young, impressionable shinobi utilize Naruto's philosophy, he will likely end up being just as selfish in their choices as Naruto. So then who watches out for the little guy keeping society going, farming out crops or teaching our kids? We need those people. It's not like Naruto has a bunch of clones working the fields for the food they eat. Naruto is benefiting from the services of others just like they benefit from him. Yet Naruto is cool with nearly starting a war that would put these peoples lives in jeopardy all for his selfish happiness? Thank goodness we have people like Gaara and Minato, because clearly someone like Naruto thinks the collective just isn't worth it or is of little consequence compared to his loved ones. It's funny because if Naruto applied his philosophy to the whole--i mean everyone, whether he sleeps with them or not--than it would be inspiring and interesting because everyone's happiness is his happiness. And that's hard to pull off when there's conflict.
I don't care if you do it for the passion, you should still get paid. Ideally well enough to live off of. Teaching and other jobs with similar salary wages are not lofty jobs, especially when you can be the leader or head or kage or something cool like that. But someone has to do it. Teachers strike because they are the little people and unfortunately it's all too easy to take advantage of the little people. Do you think they shouldn't get paid? It may be their passion but they're still providing a service to society. And one might argue a very important one. I'm surprised people even want to be teachers with the shitty salary they have. I thought Naruto was getting paid for all the missions he does. Is that not the case? Has he been doing all his missions for free? I imagine taking out Kanji was free, but I thought most of the other stuff saw a direct deposit of some sort.
If Naruto doesn't like the expectations/views placed on him by society why doesn't he just leave society? I would argue that he is just as caged as Yugito. A tool just like Yugito. A jinchuuriki just like Yugito. Yet you don't see him defecting. How is Ay is supposed to be cool with Konan asking and expecting him to give her reinvented Akatsuki an active member of his nations military?? If Konan, hell, if any group that used to be a bad organization and now good, came to Tsunade and asked her to let them have Naruto, are you telling me she, as the Hokage, would be okay with that? We as the audience as well as Gaara know that Konan and her Akatsuki are on the up and up, but the Raikage doesn't know that. How is Ay suppose to trust a recently flipped organization with one of his strongest shinobi? Kumo is a military state right? Does Yugito's position allows her to pick and choose assignments and that's why she's pissed Ay won't let her go? It's absolutely true that the Raikage acted like a dick and even hostile, but he's still in the right. If Konan asked a non active kumo shinobi to join her group, I could understand that but Yugito is still active. It is entirely the decision of the commanding officer to allow one of his soldiers to join in a newly formed combat unit or not. If I was the Raikage, I would've said, "Sorry. Tactically it doesn't make sense to weaken our military force by giving you one of my strongest shinobi. I'll consider lending her to you but in the mean time I can only publicly give your Akatsuki my support and even petition any non active kumo shinobi who would like to join but that is all I can do." That is reasonable response and hard to refute but the end result is still Yugito not going. Would she then still defect if he had said that? You say she's caged but she didn't feel that way until the meeting nothing really changed but the perspective. The blinders may be gone but she's still running the same race. But whatever if you say Yugito was miserable even though she still has an exceptional lover and supportive family, than who am I to say otherwise.
The Uzumaki Clan returns! I don't mean to say it's his responsibility. I purposely put the words, "if it's not a hard thing to do," precisely for that reason. I'm not saying Naruto NEEDS to be the one to do it, though it seems borderline lazy not to. If anything I only bring it up cuz it's odd for me to believe someone who is all about family draws a hard line against simply reaching out to the fractured and distant clan of his kin. He doesn't need to have some altruistic motivation for it. In my mind it's a simple registration at the council building and then mailing out a notice to major cities or villages. If that's too difficult for Naruto to do than at least outsource it. Does Fuka, or Mito, or Kushina not care as much as Naruto and apparently Karin do? You've racked up quite a few Uzumaki already, yet other, scattered Uzumaki don't seem to be important to them... them... the same group that call themselves, The Family. It just seems like a logical next step to fill out some paper work, and mail out some invitations. Unless you're saying it'll take more effort than that. If it does, i'd like to read it.
Is there a ranking for our kunoichi? A lineup of strength or battle capability? Like Tenten has been training with Tsunade, so is she now as strong or stronger than Yuugao or any of the bijuu? While I have no doubt Tenten will be even stronger with the Thunder God technique than she already is, she's still a weapons specialist using a technique that pairs really well with close range taijutsu or ninjutsu. I remember in the Manga when Minato fought Tobi and used his technique, totally whooping him. I just have a hard time seeing Tenten doing something like that... which is my fault really. I don't have a great imagination or I'm too hung up on their specialties to be convinced otherwise.
Shit! This got longer than I intended. Thank you again for responding! That's always super cool of authors. No need to respond to this unless you want to. If you do, know I'll totally appreciate it! Thank you and keep up the stellar work.
P.S. I did lose the weight and now I'm nearly yoked!
--Abby
Author's response
You’re welcome.
I can’t really say that I agree that it makes my Naruto more lackluster. To me, it would be in finding out that a character isn’t what he says he is. Canon Naruto made many promises, and what do we find out in the end, but that he was just a politician that had no problem making promises, that he had no intention of keeping. Moreover, his manipulations extended to people we thought he cared for like Sakura who he was after only to win points in his rivalry with Sasuke. I would have preferred knowing this in the beginning as then I and I imagine many people wouldn’t have followed this series. I don’t think Naruto’s goals are what makes him impressive, but his character. To me, the person that was willing to fight against being a tool in a world that viewed shinobi as disposable weapons is far more interesting, as it speaks to his character. People wanting to unite the world are a dime a dozen, and as mentioned before goals don’t say much about the person trying to achieve them. A man trying to cure cancer to become rich has a noble goal, even if his reason for doing it isn’t all that noble. So, what does his goal say about him? To me, nothing. It’s how he carries himself that matters.
I don’t agree that Naruto is the same as them, because he isn’t in a position of power within his government. Granted, he is a power behind the scenes, but when he bounds someone to him, to me it is akin to his taking marriage vows. A part of those vows is to hold your partners above all others. He is honoring that vow that he made to his lovers. To me, people make promises all the time without considering the ramifications of them. Naruto could say the same in the beginning, with his statement that he would always do right by his lovers. It would be the easy thing to now break it, because to not do so might cause negative consequences. Far harder is to continue to honor it.
Besides which, if he did begin to treat his lovers as a means to an end. What is the incentive for the next woman to join him. If he just says flowery words to get them in his bed, then he is a charlatan, Much as canon Naruto turned out to be. To me, the more interesting character is the one that stands by his vow, after all, he never promised the civilians of Konoha, Kumo, and Suna that he was going to change the world. He did promise the women that he has chosen to help him, and also promised them to, “Always do right by them.” I can’t really help it if you decide to focus on his overall goal as something to assign nobility to as opposed to his words and actual promises.
As far as heroes go, well Charles Barkley once famously said, “I’m not a role model.” To me, while it is still fine to look up to him as a great basketball player. That doesn’t mean he needs to comport himself in any manner then how he wants to live, in order to meet any expectation some fan has for him. He is entitled to live his life anyway he wants, and just because people look up to him it doesn’t give them the right to force him to act a certain way to meet our expectations. Canon Naruto doesn’t meet mine after all, does that mean Kishimoto needs to change him to meet what I expected him to be? Of course not, so neither should Tsunade and Mito change or act a certain way to meet Tenten’s. It is there life to live how they want.
Naruto in my story is merely being honest when he states he isn’t going to sacrifice the happiness of his lovers for the happiness of strangers, so while that might disappoint you. Ultimately, to me it is better to live with disappointment then to buy into a false idol who tells you the right things while not meaning any of them. Because as your personal story can attest to, while you met someone that inspired you to improve yourself. I believe it was because he meant the words he told you. So how would it feel to find out that what he said was just rubbish to get you to change as he couldn’t accept you the way you were? Because, to me, if Naruto starts treating his lovers as props to advance his goal, then everything he said to them to get them to join them would have been lies.
While I agree that not everyone floats to the top, most of the examples you listed are born to their positions. Kings, and Head of Clans in particular are mostly hereditary positions. Moreover, just because a person is a farmer doesn’t mean they aren’t a leader in many other aspects of life, be it their local community or family. Yes, society does indeed need them, but does that mean they would agree to be sacrificed for society. What if society felt it had too many farmers and decided to take someone’s land to build a factory. Should that farmer just meekly accept having his land stolen because society as a whole demands it. Screw that, why should he surrender his land for strangers that have decided without considering his wants and desires that he shouldn’t be a farmer anymore. If you’re willing to surrender your freedoms to appease society, then don’t be surprised when society doesn’t ask your permissions when it decides to oppress you.
I never said that was the only factor Naruto considered when he decided to help Yugito flee Kumo. But it was the primary one yes. The other factor was that Yugito was essentially a slave of the shinobi system. After all, as a babe she had a weapon sealed inside her and no thought or consideration was given to her wants and desires. Having developed a desire to join Akatsuki, why should she surrender it because Kumo decided to make her a weapon? Because society demanded it, society was what turned her into a weapon in the first place. How can Naruto hope to change society, if he refuses to push back against it where he believes it is wrong. The first step was striping Ay of one of his weapons that made him so confident about his position in society. Gaara and Minato sacrificed those closest to them to protect society, then what purpose does society serve if not to protect those we care for. What if the solution Minato came up with for stopping the kyuubi meant everyone in the village needed to sacrifice one person they cared for, would you be okay with that? Who would you give up? The person that inspired you to change yourself. Would their life be worth trading to stop some calamity or would you seek a better alternative? Are the people that say the price is too high just being selfish? To me, Minato wasn’t selfless because he roped his child and wife into his sacrifice. Neither were obliged to be sacrifices so Minato could create a weapon to be pointed at Konoha’s enemies. Kushina was even willing to sacrifice herself to deal with the Kyuubi and that would have been selfless. He had another option, but wanted a weapon so used up his wife and son. That isn’t a hero to me just because society benefitted. After all, only society would say sacrificing a child was a good thing because it was saved as a result.
The medium salary for teachers is $45,000 across the USA. By me, the median annual salary for a school teacher is close to $60,000. I think that puts most well in the middle class with benefit packages that can go into the high six figures. The idea that teachers are underpaid is laughable as far as I’m concerned. I feel that if teaching is their passion, then the job should be reward enough. But, if they desire more money, then they should be willing to move to a district where they can get paid more. Instead, they use the children in their care as hostages denying them an education until their demands are met. Furthermore, through this bargaining you aren’t allowed to pay good teachers better than bad teachers, meaning there is no incentive to excel at the profession allowing most to coast through regardless of how prepared the students that they turn out are. You’re right Naruto does get paid to go on missions, just as Minato was paid to be Hokage, and Iruka was paid to be a teacher. But what if Naruto didn’t want to be a shinobi any more, would society let him? Was he ever given a choice to be anything but one much as Yugito?
I would agree that Naruto is as caged as Yugito by his circumstances, which were forced on him by his father by the way, especially if he wanted to be anything but a shinobi. Thus don’t you think a sign that he is making progress would be if he could eventually walk away from being one. As to Yugito, if she was free then wouldn’t it be her choice whether or not she should be allowed to join Akatsuki. It wasn’t as if she was given a choice to be a jinchuriki in the first place. As a jinchuriki is she ever going to be allowed to be inactive, or upon her becoming such would they just yank the bijuu out of her, killing her in the process, and place it into someone else. If you were the Raikage, you would also have authorized the kidnapping of Hinata to try and bolster his military. Furthermore, if you succeeded what would you do if she wanted to go home someday? But, to me you seem to be arguing his choices are okay because he can justify that his society benefits from them. I understand why he wouldn’t want to, but he was never going to allow Yugito to live a life that she wanted. Furthermore, Yugito is a person not an item, do you think if Ay had allowed her to go that she would have turned around and attacked her home just because Konan demanded it. If he had shown some trust in her, she would probably still have remained loyal to him. Up until she learned that he had stolen her much as he tried to Hinata. In the end, I view characters as Ay, Minato, and Gaara, as viewing people as little more than game pieces to be moved on the board rather than people with hopes and dreams of their own. As such, they spend their lives and even the lives of people close to them frivolously so long as the gain is great enough. Minato in particular had an option that would deal with the Kyuubi in the short term allowing him to plan for the long, but he decided he wanted Konoha to have a weapon as well. Thus he turned his son into one also dooming him to be a slave of society. How then in turn can Naruto justify using his lovers as pieces to be traded away in order to bring about his ambition. How can he hurt the very people that he should be wanting to benefit the most from the changes they are bringing about? To me, the only acceptable answer is that he can’t, not if he truly loves and cherishes them. At the same time, I don’t expect Society to care, but that doesn’t mean he is going to surrender to its whims. It comes down to who has the greater will to remain true to what they desire, and if society wins out, then how can Naruto possibly change it, when he is sacrificing that what he claims to care for to Society in order to appease it.
Again, what makes it his responsibility? You say it isn’t a hard thing to do, then why didn’t Mito as the wife of the First Hokage. Or Kushina as the wife of the Foruth. What makes it his responsibility? They had more ties to the Uzumaki then he ever did.
I don’t really see the characters as how strong or weak they are. I just want to showcase that they are improving themselves.
Again, thank you for taking the time to comment. Sincerely the Lemon Sage.
P.S, Congratualtions